tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC September 21, 2015 8:00pm-9:01pm PDT
it's not about doing non-profit work. >> i mean, i -- i got to take issue with that. raising money for good causes. >> it's 11:00. if you will stay here at the table we're going to finish this conversation online another few minutes but right now it's got to be the end of this show. thanks for being on the show. we're going to continue the conversation. before we go, programs note. hope francis arrives in washington tomorrow. msnbc special coverage of pope francis in america will be led tomorrow by brian williams beginning tomorrow at 3:00 p.m. eastern. chris hayes is up next. tonight on "all in" -- >> i will suspend my campaign immediately. >> from the summer of trump to the fall of walker. >> i encourage other republican presidential candidates to consider doing the same. >> scott walker becomes the second major republican candidate to drop out of the race. tonight, what happened and who's
next? then, ben carson is not backing down. >> i would not advocate that we put a muslim in charge of this nation. >> the ongoing fallout from the politics of paranoia. >> it's not my obligation to defend the president. plus, getting to the bottom of carly fiorina's factually challenged surge. and my interview with ta-nehisi coates. >> when you see donald trump, people standing up talking bay war on cops. anyone who thinks progress in the era of prison reform is a done deal really should be humbled by that. >> when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. a major republican presidential candidate who led the polls in iowa for 24 weeks but whose polling there and nationally has absolutely plummeted over the past two months today dropped out of the race. governor scott walker, wisconsin, calls it quits today in madison just 70 days after officially announcing his run
for the nation's highest office. >> today i believe that i'm being called to lead by helping to clear the field in this race so that a positive conservative message can rise to the top of the field. with this in mind i will suspend my campaign immediately. i encourage other republican presidential candidates to consider doing the same so that the voters can focus on a limited number of candidates who can offer a positive conservative alternative to the current front-runner. this is fundamentally important to the future of the party and more importantly to the future of our country. >> the postmortem for walker's campaign began early and often with the practical effect of his failing on a national stage was simple. it made fund-raising much harder. the short answer is money, a supporter of mr. walker who was briefeon the decision told "the new york times."
"he's made the decision not to limp into iowa." liz mayer, who was on walker's staff for a single day, was prolific this afternoon in the stream of tweets. "things he got wrong. misunderstanding the gop base, its priorities and stances, pandering can flip-flopping, hiring people who spend a lot to build out a massive operation that would not be sustainable unless financing remained amazing forever. not educating himself fast enough on issues outside of governs. educating himself on some things by talking to the wrong people." and those are just a few. since his presidential announcement from his home base of wisconsin walker seemed to lack the surefootedness that got him through his first election, a recall election, and re-election as governor. this real clear politics chart of aggregate polling in iowa with walker's chart in orange shows him with a solid lead from mid february months before his official announcement until august, a few weeks after that announcement. it was in early august that walker was eclipsed by donald trump shown in light blue. that red line is ben carson. all that points to part of the problem. walker simply stopped resonating
with the gop base, and his debate performances did nothing to help. in the first national poll since that second debate walker garnered a statistically insignificant amount. less than 1%. walker's political manifesto, "unintimidated," apparently not an effective predictor of the candidate's longevity. joining me now from madison, wisconsin john nichols, washington correspondent for "the nation" and a veteran walkerologist. having watched him up close. john, are you surprised by this? >> yes. i was surprised that he did it today. i expected that scott walker would quit the race before iowa because there's no trampoline in presidential politics. you don't go to the top and then bounce back up. and so he was in trouble. but my sense was that he would at least hold on for a little longer. he had money. that's not the problem. he was running low. and new money wasn't coming in. but he had enough to go on for a while longer. what i think happened today was
a playout of that poll number you that just mentioned, that 0.0, and the notion that he had actually fallen to a point where it was very likely that he would be the first major contender to be pushed out of the main stage debates down to the kid table. and that -- for a guy with scott walker's ego and his lingering ambition, the fact he still wants to be in politics, the notion of being shuttled off to the kids' table and having to debate bobby jindal, i just don't think appealed to him. >> that's fascinating because i just saw some reporting saying that the super pac allied with governor walker still has quite a bit of money of cash on hand. i think i saw the number, maybe $20 million or -- $10, $20 million. i mean, they could finance -- the superpac could finance this. you're suggesting that's a really interesting idea, right? if that polling was bad enough, the humiliation, the sheer national humiliation of having to move from the main stage
debate to the kids' table and what that would do to your brand politically going forward for someone who was in the scheme of politics relatively young. >> that's exactly right. scott walker isn't 50. he has potentially a lot of political future ahead of him, although i will tell you, this campaign has been an absolute mess. he has been failed from the start of it on messaging. and interestingly enough, he was even failed at the end. it's amazing that you would exit a presidential race by declaring that you are going to lead by quitting and clearing the field. it speaks to the kind of tin ear that he's had as regards this whole year. and my sense is, my sense is that he may himself have started to realize that he just didn't -- he just didn't get this year. >> you know, you point to his final announcement, which was truly bizarre. i mean, look, we've got two of these so far. we had rick perry. and rick perry's was generally upbeat.
it was very religious. but it was upbeat. it was sort of like, well, you go get them next time, this just didn't work out. walker seemed like someone under duress. if you showed that video to someone, you'd think he'd gotten indicted or something just based on the kind of grimness of it, the fact that when he said he was quitting one person applauded which was sort of awkward. i don't know who did that. your point about the tin ear i think is important here. i mean, he seemed to sort of lurch from position to position from the moment he got in the race even if it meant firing liz mair because of some tweets she had that were anti-ethanol. he was all over the place from day one. >> that's absolutely right. in fact, i believe we're up to like 25, 26 stands on immigration so far. it's absolutely amazing how many places he has gone. and this is really i think boils down to a fundamental reality with scott walker. scott walker is a political strategist. he is a y who loves politics, he loves the game.
he loves getting the donors in place. he loves planning the schedule. he's never been particularly interested in policy. and so the problem for scott walker is that when he got his ticket onto the main stage, when he actually got, you know, up to the highest levels of republican politics and started being asked, well, what do you want to do with this gig, how do you want to lead this country, i don't think he thought about it. i should note that there are >> right. i should note that there are some -- some glee in the national offices of the afl-cio. one of the last things scott walker did before exiting stage was put out a policy proposal that would essentially roll back 80 years of labor law, essentially get rid of unions in their current form as enshrined in the wagner act during the great depression. the afl-cio when he declared in one statement scott walker is a national disgrace, today the afl-cio, scott walker is still a disgrace, just no longer national. they got that in. john nichols, thanks so much for your time. really appreciate it. >> a pleasure.
joining me now, msnbc political analyst former rnc chairman michael steele. michael, there is a piece today that buzzfeed reported out sort of about the donor class of the gop sweating what's happening so far. still very early obviously. we've seen john kerry bounce back from being very far back in 2004 and john mccain in 2008. but, i mean, the trump phenomenon and the way the race has played out has had real effects. governor perry and scott walker, you could imagine different versions of this campaign, which they are not just still in this thing, they are actually very much competitive. >> no, they really were. and you know, we talk about the impact this has had on jeb bush, for example. but it's had an even bigger impact on folks like walker and governor perry because they were originally positioning themselves to either trump, if you will, jeb or at least get some of the residual pull from him. what happened once trump got in the race, when that oxygen
started to leave the room, they were the first to suffocate. and i think they saw it in the their money, they saw it in their support, and they saw it in organization on the ground. and i want to go to something that john said, which i think is very important to note. the walker campaign also faced a harsh reality that put his friend reince priebus in a really tricky spot, because going into the next debate, there was already talk that there would be no kiddie table. so there was no table to go to in that second debate. and the rnc was beginning to think about shrinking that stage from 11 to 8. so there was a real possibility that he would not necessarily be on that stage to begin with irrespective of anything else short of what he did today. >> well, that's an excellent point. and it strikes to the note that walker hit, which was an odd one. basically, the subtext, he didn't explicitly say this was, we need to stop trump and make
sure he's not the nominee. the number of possible candidates is part of what's allowing him to continue to pull ahead. >> exactly. >> i am taking one for the team by dropping out, which frankly seems -- i mean, you spin it however you want to spin it. but what do you make of that message? it was a very weird parting shot. >> it wasn't as weird as you may think it is. i think that there have been -- i don't know this for certain. but knowing how the rnc thinks, operates and typically functions, particularly the establishment members thereof, that there are already some conversations to some of the candidates about that very thing. scott walker telegraphed that conversation in so many ways because, like you said, it is kind of odd to go out and say i'm going to take one for the team. >> i think about it. >> so that is a lot of back channel noise, i believe, that's beginning to occur that the part party is looking to whittle this field. as i just mentioned, no kiddie table potentially. the number on the stage reduced.
and this is beginning to focus like a laser on trumping donald trump, to get him off of that stage or at least to its edge where he falls off sometime before iowa. >> yeah, that i think is very clearly the kind of conversation happening. it leaves, of course -- it leaves i think a lot of donors looking at jeb bush, john kasich, marco rubio as sort of the remaining folks that i think have been basically the favorites of the donor class so far. and part of what the walker thing says to me again is, look, just because jeb bush fund-raising in name, doesn't mean he takes this either or that he survives. i mean, he has to start doing things at some point to turn around his campaign. >> well, i think you've got to be careful there, chris, because the bush team is a very sophisticated smart team, and while everyone is focused on that bright shining object that is donald trump and now carly and ben carson, they have been systematically and methodically organizing on the ground.
remember, this is not a race to be the most popular kid in the room. this is to be the guy who has the most delegates going into the convention. and that organizational structure works to jeb bush's advantage. >> yeah, and it's a reminder you can basically play tortoise and the hare if you've got sufficient funds. right? jeb bush from the beginning, the whole idea was huge fund-raising numbers, advertise to everyone that they have all this funding backing, make that resonate with people so they don't start essentially judging you day to day in the way that happened to walker. you can keep telling them you're the tortoise and everyone else is the hare. i guess my point is, one of the things we're seeing with walker is at a certain point the field kind of gets its own momentum. but we'll see. i think you're right about their sophistication long term. michael steele, always a pleasure. >> you got it, buddy. still to come, with two candidates out, who's the next to fall? we'll talk likely demises and, more importantly, how does this all affect the "all in" 2016
fantasy candidate draft, the question you've all been asking? plus, carly fiorina jumps in the polls coming off a strong debate performance unless you were listening to what she actually said. a quick fact check ahead. and later my interview with ta-nehisi coates about his article "the black family in the age of mass incarceration." those stories and more ahead. when a wildfire raged through elkhorn ranch, the sudden loss of pasture became a serious problem for a family business. faced with horses that needed feeding and a texas drought that sent hay prices soaring, the owners had to act fast. thankfully, mary miller banks with chase for business. and with greater financial clarity and a relationship built for the unexpected, she could control her cash flow, and keep the ranch running. chase for business. so you can own it. chase for business.
i will suspend my campaign immediately. i encourage other republican presidential candidates to consider doing the same. >> whether or not his fellow republicans follow his lead, we know at least one of the major repercussions of scott walker's decision today. it means that sam seder just lost one of his all-in 2016 fantasy candidate draft picks. fortunately, he's still got the points from walker's appearance in the last two debates. he's now at 1600 points in total. joy reid, who also lost a candidate when rick perry dropped out ten days ago, is at 1900 points. michael steele's candidates are all still in but the lack of democratic debates so far is hurting his score.
he's at 1700. josh barrow is at 2,000 points with his two candidates in both. 1,000 points with his two candidates in two debates. jess mcintosh has twice that after her candidates appeared on stage. right now jess is leading draft board, but for how long? which candidates will follow scott walker's call to leave the race? we'll talk about that next. ess . ...is kind of a big deal. it's finally back, with as much shrimp as you want, any way you want 'em. one taste of these new pineapple habanero coconut shrimp bites, and i already want more. they even brought back wood-grilled teriyaki shrimp! yeah, you heard me: teriyaki. and really: what's not to love about... ...buttery garlic shrimp scampi? here, the sweet, spicy, crispy possibilities are as endless as the shrimp. and yeah, they're endless, but they won't last forever. it's from virtually anywhere.rn of danger it's been smashed, dropped and driven. it's perceptive enough to detect other vehicles on the road. it's been shaken, rattled and pummeled.
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next move? joining me now msnbc contributor sam seder host of "the majority report." jess macintosh, spokesperson for emily's list. do we want to start with a little "all in" fantasy draft business? >> i would love to. >> yes, jess, well, you're sitting pretty right now. but let's all be clear about what happened. you have trump basically because of a judge's ruling trump falling into your lap just to be clear. >> i'm going to take a bank error in my favor. >> that's what you have right now. the big question for how it all plays out, and, sam, my condolences on scott walker, maybe he makes some sort of comeback. >> i think it's possible. he's leading from the bleachers. i think it's possible he comes back in at the last minute. >> you know, here's the thing. when you get to the nominee process in a presidential campaign, we have a lot of political science that says a lot of that's baked in. the campaigns don't matter a ton once you get to the nominee part because of the ways that polarization operate and the ways that voting behavior happens. you know, the campaigns at the margins.
in this primary, in the republican primary, the campaigns have mattered a lot. >> oh, yeah. >> and the sheer disaster that was the scott walker campaign took someone who could have been formidable and turned him into an also-ran. >> and i have to say, too, someone who has always been very skeptical of the horse race and whatnot, 0.0 in the polls apparently matters as well. this guy pulled the dean wermer essentially in terms of 0.0, and so he's gone. there's been a lot of i think -- there's been a dynamic that i think in some respects at least has been unique to this point. i mean, the polls have made a difference because there are so many people out there. and i'm not convinced that frankly the donors were just basically on a spending freeze, just waiting till this shakes out because who do you put your money behind? >> that's a good point, jess. right? if you're a donor right now.
seven-figure or six-figure donor to scott walker you've got to be feeling pretty burned. >> scott walker was the favorite of the koch brothers. that's who dropped out today. if anything's going to signal to six- and seven-figure gop donors that this is the guy that the smart money is behind, it would be the koch brothers' endorsement, which he had. in the last couple of days he played his best cards. he said he was doubling down on iowa, which is his midwest governor shtick. he said that -- he put out his hugely anti-union proposal, which is the thing that propelled him to a pseudo front-runner status in the first place was being the most anti-labor republican out there. and it did absolutely nothing. it's not just the polls. it's the debates. it's the polls mattering for the debates that is making polls matter this early. >> the debates have mattered a huge amount. and that point, he put out this one-pager on policy on unions, and to me that was a perfect kind of microcosm of what happens to these candidates who have to spend so much time around the gop donor class. that's one of the things trump has illustrated.
those people you're spending all the time around trying to tell a story to to give you money, they're not the base. and those two groups don't have -- so the idea the base is going to get all like -- you're going to surge ahead in the polling because you're going to repeal the wagner act, i actually don't think rank-and-file voters in iowa care about that one way or the other. that is explicitly a donor class play, but at a certain point you need actual genuine enthusiasm. >> i would also say that not only did they not care about the wagner act, the republican base doesn't seem to care about policy at all. they are supporting things in supporting trump that they have sworn off. i mean, the idea that this guy is leading -- still continues to lead the pack in the most consistent way of any candidate since declaring and is calling for a single payer health care system is just absurd. i mean, the bottom line is they are attracted to a disposition and to an attitude and that is it, and they've been trained in that way. you know, when donald trump got grief for not responding to that person who was asking that
question about muslims, the first thing i remembered was john boehner who in 2011 was asked by brian williams, what will you say to the members of your own caucus who do not believe, who have publicly brought up a bill to say that the president's not an american? he said, it's not my responsibility. >> exactly. they've been trained -- >> they built it. >> here's this thinking i keep seeing everywhere in the wake of the sort of walker demise, jess, is basically people saying, look, there are four candidates that were plausible choices of the establishment, that was scott walker, jeb bush, marco rubio, and john kasich. kasich is not going to survive the primary because he has views that the base hates. medicaid expansion particularly. he talks in a way that seems designed to antagonize them. jeb bush has shown everyone to be a really not particularly gifted candidate as of now. who knows how that changes. leaving marco rubio, who has shot up in the latest polling in the wake of the debate. what do you think of the sort of mini rubio bubble that is emerging? >> i think rubio is getting a
bubble by forfeit. i'm starting to develop a working theory about this presidential primary that if you are not donald trump, the best way to win this game is not to play. ben carson did it in the debates, and we see him rise every time. i think rubio is sort of winning-ish by not really getting in there. and every time marco rubio does really get in there, he does himself some damage. that first debate, he was the one that started this now we don't believe in abortion exemptions for rape, incest, and life of the mother. that was marco rubio who pinned that on many of the men in the field. just today he was talking about women who go to planned parenthood not being given any alternatives other than abortion, which of course isn't true. talking about them being pushed into abortions so they can harvest fetal parts, which is of course insane. i think that the more marco rubio talks the harder it's going to be for him to say that he is one of the credible guys. he entered this race damaged
with an immigration policy that was too moderate, that he couldn't then stand behind. he's not a strong leader. so when he starts having to be one, i think it's going to expose a lot of flaws. >> i mean, he's yet to actually get involved in an exchange with any of the other candidates. he just sits there and he's smart, he talks just to camera but the moment he gets into an exchange with somebody i think he's going to be in trouble. >> it really is -- this metaphor's been overused but at this point is really is a game of survivor. the longer you can go, you raise enough money, you have an operation that's lean enough, you can keep going, keep going, keep going, until, you know, people start to actually weigh in on votes and get into the debates, you've got a chance. sam seder and jess mcintosh, thank you. still head, another candidate facing calls to drop out of the race. ben carson's campaign, however, is holding firm to its rejection of the possibility of a muslim in the white house. others are saying he's unfit for the office because of it. that story's next. it's more than the cloud. it's security - and flexibility. it's where great ideas and vital data are stored.
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amid calls to drop out of the presidential race, republican candidate ben carson is refusing to stand down from his assertion that a muslim should not be president of the united states. after donald trump came under fire for failing to push back on a questioner's anti-muslim comments at a town hall last week, carson was asked about religion and politics yesterday on "meet the press." >> should a president's faith matter? should your faith matter to voters? >> i guess it depends on what that faith is. if it's inconsistent with the values and principles of
america, then of course it should matter. but if it fits within the realm of america and consistent with the constitution, no problem. >> so do you believe that islam is consistent with the constitution? >> no, i don't. i do not. i would not advocate that we put a muslim in charge of this nation. i absolutely would not agree with that. >> so the carson campaign later tried to clarify those comments, telling nbc news, "he believes americans are far from ready to accept a muslim for president. one could run. one should be allowed to run. but he was merely saying he could not advocate for someone whose faith was inconsistent with the constitution to lead our country." in an interview this morning carson's business manager defended the candidate. >> he understands that there are tenets of islam that hates jews, will kill homosexuals, will kill muslims, do not advocate the belief and value systems that made america into the country
that it is into today. this is why he's not a politician. this is why he's not trying to be politically correct. this is america. it is not an issue of religion to dr. carson. this is an issue of one's belief system, of how they're going to govern. he believes in telling the truth. you may not like the truth, but it is the truth. and when you tell the truth, alison, there's nothing to apologize for. >> for the record, that's not really the truth on islam, but that would take a longer section to fact check. the backlash to carson's campaign's explicitly anti-muslim position has been enormous with bernie sanders and hillary clinton tweeting can a muslim be president? in a word yes. now let's move on. the council on islamic public relations, cair for short, is calling on him to drop out of the presidential race altogether. meanwhile, donald trump had a slightly better answer to the same question on "meet the press." he's still entertaining the
fringe idea that president obama is lying about his faith. >> can you imagine supporting or being comfortable if a muslim ever became president of the united states? >> i can say that, you know, it's something that at some point could happen. we'll see. i mean, you know, it's something that could happen. would i be comfortable? i don't know if we have to address it right now. but i think it is certainly something that could happen. >> you said you'd have no problem putting -- >> some people say it already happened, frankly. >> with two republican front-runners mired in controversy, one of their rivals, another candidate who's never held elected office, seems to be having a little bit of a moment. a new poll finds that carly fiorina, who is nearly excluded from the second gop presidential debate, has shot into second place among republican primary candidates. look at that. behind only donald trump. fiorina now stands at 15%, up from just 3% in early september. while voters and pundits were impressed by her last debate performance and her strong speaking style, there are still a lot of questions about whether
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carly fiorina's surge in the presidential race is due in large part to what was unquestionably a stylistic impressive performance in last week's debate. but the media has spent a lot of time celebrating without, for the most part, bothering to consider the actual substance of what she said. we've already talked about on this show fiorina's deeply, deeply misleading, some might even say libelous description of the planned parenthood videos. that was far from her only transgression. listen to these comments on foreign policy. >> what i would do immediately is begin rebuilding the sixth fleet. i would begin rebuilding the missile defense program in poland. i would conduct regular aggressive military exercises in the baltic states. i'd probably send a few thousand more troops into germany. vladimir putin would get the message. >> all right. that sounds pretty impressively detailed, right? she's got all these particular things she'd do. but as slate's mike pesca pointed out, in just those 15 seconds fiorina managed to make multiple claims that don't make a whole lot of sense. start with her first statement,
what i would do immediately is begin rebuilding the sixth fleet. as "stars and stripes" notes, her meaning wasn't clear. the sixth fleet is less ships than a command structure for operating american warships. moreover, the fleet is one of the growing military commands in europe. fiorina then said she would begin rebuilding the missile defense program in poland. but while one missile defense program there was scuttled, poland is actually leading eastern european missile defense efforts and plans to install a new system in 2018. fiorina then vowed to conduct regular aggressive military exercises in the baltic states, which would be fine, although you might not think that's a good idea, but that is already happening. as you can see from these images from u.s.-led military exercises in where else, the baltics, that took place in june. finally, fiorina said she'd probably send a few more thousand troops into germany. there are currently more than 44,000 troops in germany. so it's hard to see how a few thousand would make that much of a difference. okay. so in 15 seconds she made four claims that sounded serious but basically amounted to not a whole lot.
and when fiorina had to defend her widely criticized tenure as ceo of hewlett-packard, she relied on misdirection as none other than donald trump pointed out. >> we doubled the size of the company. we quadrupled its top line growth rate. we quadrupled its cash flow. >> when carly says the revenues went up, that's because she bought compaq. it was a terrible deal. and it really led to the destruction of the company. >> joining me now, msnbc contributor josh barrow, national correspondent with the upshot of the "new york times" who spent actually a lot of times on fiorina's business record. >> yep. >> you know, well, what's the takeaway of her tenure at hewlett-packard? >> most of the reviews have been negative. they range from really extremely negative. jeffrey sonnenfeld from the yale business school called her the worst non-incarcerated ceo in america, to mildly negative. the "times" had a story on her today with one management expert basically saying i put her in the top of the bottom third of ceos. the thing that fiorina says is correct is the time she led hp -- >> was a tough time.
>> -- was a tough time for hardware manufacturers like hp. she laid off a lot of people. probably anybody who was ceo would have ended up laying off a lot of people. the big problem with what she did is she looked at a number of difficult declining or low-profit businesses and decided to expand them. she bought compaq, as donald trump pointed out. hp had a personal computer business that was not very profitable, so she went out and bought a much larger personal computer business that was also not very profitable. the theory was by becoming a bigger player they'd be able to get economies of scale and make higher profits, and that turned out to be wrong. in fact they had a business that was not very impressive and was larger. >> and that's what she says on her top line numbers. the revenues went up, size of the company doubled. you bought this company that then was a disaster. >> right. and so it could have been worse. hp didn't go bankrupt. it could have gone bankrupt. but the question is was she a terrible ceo or merely mediocre or bad ceo, neither of those is really a great record to run on to be president. >> see, that's what i find so bizarre about this. because we're not talking about
someone who's got this career in which they've got a whole bunch of different things they've done in the public eye and some were wins and some were losses. like i'm a filmmaker and i had some busts and i had some blockbusters. the reason that people know who carly fiorina is before she ran for that senate seat, the reason she's famous is because she was the ceo of hewlett-packard. >> and -- >> that one job which she was either terrible at or not great at. >> right. and then as trump pointed out in the debate, the other thing she did, the thing that got her the job at hp is she ran this business called lucent which was a large division of at&t that was very hot when she ran it. it was a telecom equipment business and like a lot of telecom businesses it did extremely well in the 1990s and then she left and it crashed afterward. granted it wasn't just lucent, it was every business like lucent ended up doing very badly after 1999. but again, she looked very good because she built this huge business but it turned out to be a bubble in telecom equipment.
those are her two accomplishments. >> this gets to a broader point about the way ceo compensation often works, which is if you have the good fortune of being in a business in which the entire field is doing well, you will be extremely generously compensated because compensation usually doesn't factor into what your peer class is. if the stocks are up because of a broad bubble, you're going to be cashing out as a ceo. as soon as things go south, 30,000 people get laid off. >> right. then there's the flip side. when everything's bad in the industry you look like an idiot while you're just being dragged down by broader companies. dell managed to do better at the time. it's had some troubles in recent years. but they showed during this '99 to '05 level you could outperform hp. apple did much better. now, apple is the most successful company in the world. so not everybody has to live up to that standards. but basically there are peers that make it clear it is possible to do what better than what hp did. >> josh barro, thank you. >> thank you. coming up the truly moving acceptance speech by viola davis for her historic win at the emmys last night. plus, my interview with ta-nehisi coates. stay with us. hey babe, last one home cooks?
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coming up, my interview with ta-nehisi coates. but first, history was made last night when viola davis became the first african-american to win an emmy for best lead actress in a drama series for her role in "how to get away with murder." that's first ever in the history of the emmys. it was an achievement marked by an emotional and powerful acceptance speech.
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about 25% of its incarcerated inhabitants. put it another way. 1 in 4 prisoners in the entire world is in an american prison cell. that stunning statistic is one of many revealed in a new block buster cover story in the "atlantic" in which he investigates the origins of the largest incarceration regime in the world. the u.s. has been running a bizarre experiment, imprisoning a larger share of the population than any other country in the world.
the data backing that up is very, very thin, indeed. earlier today, i spoke to coates who is currently in paris after the release of his best-selling book between the world and me. and i asked him why he focused the latest article on mass incarceration and the black family specifically. >> i think like family has become one of the lenses through which people talk about african-american communities. and this has gone across the board from conservatives, you know, focusing on family and focusing on out of wedlock. the dialogue among liberals in the democratic party, too. i have to be honest, like starting since i was interested in the direct effect of mass incarceration on the african-american family, but the end of the piece, you know, i became fairly convinced the family is not the sosole or pri lens through which one should understand the problems in the african-american community.
>> you start the piece and the title a sort of callback to the famous moynihan report. before he was a senator, he was a academic and bureaucrat and wrote this famous study of the black family. that in some ways has been misinterpreted or misread. you do a kind of reexcavation of it. what do you think we've missed in the report sf? >> well, i hate to do the both sides thing. and usually i oppose that. but there have been misreadings on two fronts. the notion that he was in in way blaming the victim, it was completely off. anyone that reads the report. he's very, very clear about where the blame should be. and not only that, if you listen to the speech that lyndon johnson gave inspired by the moynihan report, he literally says that, you know, for even as
he talks about family breakdown, that blame must be laid at the feet of white society. on the other hand, i think that conservatives who like to, you know, make these illusions to the report and his focus on family are not so quick to make allusions to the fact he was very much calling for government action, money to be spent on behalf of black people. he thought it should be done through the family, but he was a liberal who believed in government action. i think one of the regrettable decisions that moynihan made was leaving our solutions and the result was left it open for folks who wanted to just lament the problem, but felt that government should do nothing about it. >> here's the chain that you get a lot of times with a certain kind of interpreter of mass incarceration and sort of african-american crime rates. it goes like this. you know, white supremacy and legacy of racism in jim crow
created this segregation and poverty. the poverty created these quote pathologists. you hear these all the time. as embodied in the report. those lead to elevated levels of criminality which then led to disproportionate incarceration. that's the kind of story mainstream politics tells about this era. what's wrong with that story? >> well, i don't think there's anything pathological about the african-american community at all. i think the community, you know, if you go into particularly, you know, deprived or poor african-american communities, you see behaviors that may not be suitable at harvard or board room or a job interview. i think viewed within the context of the community and viewed within people of struggling with elevated rates of violence, viewed from rates of the perspective of people very much concerned about getting from point "a" to point "b," and i mean that geographically, those behaviors make sense. i've long maintained this long before i was doing this piece
that within the context of racism. all the behaviors within the community actually make sense. the only problem is the boot upon your neck. and the minute that folks remove the boot, i believe that we receive a lot of those behaviors that we term as pathological begin to fade. >> and one of the things you've talked about in the piece, when you put massive amounts of people in prison, and you do a great job in the piece of just laying out the scale of what we have done. which people, i think, know, yeah, we put more people in prison. but the scale of it is really something to behold. and you sort of lay out the data. when you put that many people in prison, they then acclimate to what life is like there and -- >> to prison. >> and that has lasting effects on how a human being comports themselves. >> right. it totally does. and one of the shocking things, i didn't get to emphasize this enough, in the piece. listen, african-american communities, which have suffered
from centuries of deprivations, are therefore more violent than most communities we see in america. i don't think there's much debate about that statistically. prison is that in a nutshell. it's what i remember from my neighborhood times ten. and people are sort of amazed you can send somebody in that environment. in many cases, at very, very young ages, and they come out, you know, trying to conduct business in that sort of way. and not only that. society continuing to view them that way. continue to be treated in a sort of second class way, that imprisonment is a badge. that you would behave a certain way in reaction to that is not shocking at all. >> you know, when we have had conversations about this piece particularly and the issue more broadly, we have slightly different perspectives on how much political progress we're going to make towards bringing
the era of mass incarceration to a close. what's your sense as you watch the politics of this play out of what hope there is, people talk about these bipartisan movement for criminal justice reform and conservative think tanks talking about it. >> right. right. >> where do you think is going? >> well, it's interesting. i'll lay this out for the viewer. you know, you and i had a conversation, and i believe it was about a month or so ago, and you were saying, it would not surprise you. and you can correct me if i have this wrong. within the next 20 or 30 years, we got our incarceration rate down to 400 per 100,000. there is no country in the world with reliable numbers that's even competitive with us. at 400 per 100,000, we would be in the vicinity of russia. we still would be a major outlier and still an embarrassment to democracy and the world. that would be some sort of progress. i just don't know. i don't know. i hope you're right.
i hope you're more than right, in fact. but when you see the reaction to say what folks are calling the ferguson effect, which is really just a juking of the numbers, a total mathematical -- when you see the governor of south carolina running a campaign against black lives matter. when you see donald trump, people standing up, talking about a war on cops. anybody who thinks progress in the era of prison reform is a done deal, you know, really should be humbled by that. >> yeah. >> god forbid crime actually rise for real. god forbid it actually happen. i don't know, i think it's highly dependent on the weather. if it rains tomorrow, we'll get prison reform, i mean, we won't. if it's sunny, we will. >> all right. thanks so much, man, really appreciate it. >> thanks for having me, chris. >> all right. that is all in for this evening. if you have not read that piece, i urge you to. it's at the website.
it's long and fantastic. full of data. and amazingynthesis of a lot of work, academics and reporters have done. go check it out. "the rachel maddow" show starts right now. >> thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. it's always easy to say in hindsight looking back now, it really does seem like there were early signs that something was wrong. >> we're out of time. governor, i know you've got to be somewhere else. can i finish with a question -- it's a tradition to ask visiting particularly republican -- senior republicans that come to london. and it's not about cheese, and it's not about foreign affairs. it's actually about evolution. do you -- are you comfortable with the idea of evolution? do you believe in it? do you accept it? >> for me i'm going to punt on that one as well. >> no. really? >> that's a question politicians shouldn't be involved in one way or the other. i'm gog